India vs China on Military Strength - Conventional and Nuclear
Aby July 5th, 2007
As two rising Asian powers, India and China are often predicted by analysts to be the future global superpowers based on their economic boom with double digit GDP growths and their rising politico-social influence in the third world since the last few years. In the myriad economic and political analyses, often overlooked is the military comparison of these two countries. It is a nation’s military strength which ensures its sovereignty and paves the way for economic stability and prosperity. A comparative analysis is therefore just, to see how India and China fare in military strengths against each other and in the global scene.
China’s military capability displayed in ‘PEACE MISSION 2005‘ joint exercise with Russia (Click on video to play)
China’s military spending in 2006 is about $ 80 billion as estimated by the United States DoD (Department of Defense) reports while the official Chinese CPC government quote is a $30 billion military expenditure. The actual Chinese military capabilities and budget are shrouded in deep secrecy to prevent foreign countries having an idea of its military power…and perhaps to generate a lot of hype. Even if we were to go by the conservative official Chinese claims of $ 30 billion, it would put China second only to USA in global military spending - a very ambitious one at that. On the other side, India’s official military spending is quoted as $22 billion for 2006 by the Ministry of Finance (India) Budget (2006-2007) last April. India however, does not keep a level of secrecy as cloaked as China does, primarily because of its democratic government system and public accountability. By its official 2006 military budget figures, India stands at 9th position in global military spending.
India’s supersonic PJ-10 BrahMos developed jointly by Russia and is the fastest cruise missile with a top speed of Mach 2.8 (~ three times faster than US’ Tomahawk)
In 2006 India’s active military personell numbered over 1,325,000 while China’s was significantly higher at 2,255,000. In the air defence area, China’s PLA (People’s Liberation Army) Air Force has 9,218 aircrafts of which about 2300 are combat aircrafts, operating from its 489+ air bases. The Indian Air Force has 3382 aircrafts which includes 1335 combat aircrafts operating from 334+ land bases and its sole aircraft carrier INS Viraat. The best combat aircrafts in China’s PLAAF are Russian Su-30 MK and indigenously built, 4th generation J-10 fighters. Indian Air Force, on the other hand has French built Dassault Mirage 2000s and Russian Su-30 MKI as the best aircrafts in its combat fleet (no indigenous fighters or aircrafts have been built by India so far). Indian Navy is the world’s eighth largest navy with a with a fleet of 145 vessels consisting of missile-capable warships, advanced submarines, the latest naval aircrafts and an aircraft carrier in its inventory. It is experienced both in combat and rescue operations during wartime and peace as seen from its wars with Pakistan in 1971, the December 2004 Tsunami, etc. On the other hand, China’s PLA Navy with its 284 fleet is quantitatively larger but primitive in actual experience and training as compared to the Indian Navy. China has no aircraft carriers in its naval fleet at present but is slated to build and induct an aircraft carrier by 2010.
In strategic nuclear defence and delivery systems China’s PLA is miles ahead of India’s nuclear forces. China’s nuclear arsenal which started stockpiling in 1964, contains more than 210 nuclear warheads. The most powerful ones among China’s nuclear arsenal have yields of over 4 megatons. In comparison, India’s strategic nuclear force which started stockpiling after the 1998 Shakti tests, has about 50-70 warheads at present. The most powerful among India’s nuclear warheads has an yield of 0.05 megatons which is minuscule, compared to China. India’s nuclear delivery system consists of bombers, supersonic cruise missiles and medium range ballistics missiles. Agni 2, India’s longest range, deployed ballistic missile is capable of a range of 2500 km, carrying a single nuclear warhead of 1000 kg. In stark contrast, China’s nuclear delivery system is far more advanced than India’s, with multi-warhead MIRV capable ICBMs like DF-5A [12000+ km] and DF-4 [7500+ km]. It also possesses submarine launched SLBMs like JL-1 [4500+ km] and strategic fighter bombers like Su-27 Flanker in its nuclear weapons delivery arsenal.
In economics it is taught that incentives drive decision making both by a nation and by an individual. In case of India, a democracy with no serious military adversary, its militarisation drive is often overshadowed by internal militancy issues and political struggles. In case of a communist China, it has a powerful military adversary in USA; their conflicts over Taiwan issue giving China a strong incentive to beef up its military defence to counter the United States. The situation is much similar to that of USSR vs USA Cold War, albeit on a smaller scale. The end result is China walking far ahead of India in military power with overpowering superiority if both conventional and nuclear forces are taken into account. However for the next couple of years, India and Japan will continue to boast of the best and most capable conventional military forces in Asia…
More Information and Sources -
The Military Balance - International Institute for Strategic Studies
Modernizing China’s Military
Global Security.org _ Reliable Security Information
- Internationalism , Military
- Comments(358)
India navy might be the best or second best in Asia but it needs to induct news ships to replace its fast outgoing ones like its aircraft carrier. It also needs submarine launched nuclear missiles and SSBNs which is China’s advantage against India.
India is mucho overrated by Indians, it is silly to think a country like India can cope with China. With no decent missile defense systems and a tiny air force, India will be overcome by Chinese PLA within hours and Indians will be running for cover.
it’s time now to cmpete with china as asuperpower ,
india, wake up!
ahead
Well, just a correction, India has not only completed, it is slated to induct indigenous LCA or Tejas multirole fighter. It is functionally quite a match to J-10.
As far as a conventional war is concerned, the attacking country is bound to loose (coz of the Himalayas)… no debates on that I guess.
arnold you are extremely uneducated in these area’s china can overrun the american air force in numbers easy job only problem is chinese aircraft will be inferior in quality and capabilities who do u expect to win? …common sense
why would we need a missile defence system when we can ensure MAD to the chinese within minutes of their launch again common sense
the chinese have a slight advantage over india but that doesnt mean they will risk it’s a slight advantage but its not an advantage worth risking considering the number of other nations its gonna face in the event of an attack on india and the damage inflicted upon it while attacking india
and the world is much more aware of the risk’s of war few example if u dont know WW2 vietnam, korean, iraq, afghanistan pakistan ….. and the list go on the days of gung ho politicians are long gone now there are more than just 1 serious contenders too think about in case of a war that is too risky
India has to raise against its poverty. So, the military raise is slow but it is gradual. Everything is very systematic here. The country which underestimates India and if it takes a step against India, then that country has to pay for it.
@Arnold - I doubt PLA can overcome one of the best conventional armed forces in the largest democracy within a few hours. It will take at least a month if not days and will have as devastating fallouts on China as in India.
@Abhishek Chatterjee - The LCA Tejas developed by Hindustan Aeronautics is a 4th generation combat aircraft in development since 1983 and planned for induction in 2010. In comparison, PRC’s Chengdu J-10 is a 4.5th generation aircraft already introduced in PLA. The cost effectiveness and air worthness of J-10 is quite better than the LCA. And moreover we are discussing India’s current defences, by 2010 the military balance would have gone much further in China’s favour at the current pace of development.
@KRISHNA KUMAR - Poverty is a problem not exclusive to India, it afflicts China too.
I would take a look at the following article before concluding anything. And by the way, the Chine J-10 has been such a disaster that even the Chinese don’t really want it. Only airfoce that is buying them is Pakistan’s airforce.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htworld/articles/20051120.aspx
Actually ignore my comment about the J-10, since I really was thinking of their JF-17, which has been a disaster, but the link is still very relevant to the topic at hand.
Information regarding india’s nukes is a bit incomplete. India in june 2007 tested AGNI 111 which has got a range of 3500km (300kiloton). It can hit most of chinese cities including beijing and shanghai. India also sucessfully tested its submarine based nuclear cruise missile sagarika (1000km).
China can keep whining about Arunachal pradesh and build dams across brahmaputra to divert water to its poor village people. If china pulls the same trick (back stabbing) like in 1962, mmm well I can assure you guys that India would make sure that china is pushed, back as far as genkhiz khan period, and never come out of its radiation filled cities. China is not Japan!!
dear all,
its the man who fights , not the weapons. The deadliest man will win
Let’s face it. The Indians are nice people, but they have been treating a war as pretty much a competition in hardware so far. They have a different perception of war as the Chinese do. Do I need to say more?
it is true that india lags behind in millitary power with china.but remember that winning a war just not depends only on technical support or quantity.remember the vietnam war?the superpower america was beaten by technologically backward vietnami,and latest example of iraq and afganistan?did america have won the war with technoligically and mentally backwards jihadi?i just mean to say that if there is a war betn india and china,it surely will not be the repetition of 1965 indochina war. jai hind!
i think china because of its greying population will slow in GDP rate and india will overtake
china in 15-20 years,then india will increase its military budget and it will overtake after 25 years but for now china is stronger than india in overall technology. jai hind…
Banking on an ageing popuplation to reduce its GDP would be too risky. Japan has a large ageing population, however it did not reduce its efficiency, GDP or technology rather it is as strong as ever. Rather India would do better improving infratructure so that India becomes a manufacturing hub like China is. With a large manpower of English speaking and technically skilled human resources, I don’t see why India wouldn’t be able to beat or at least compete with China in the coming years.
At the current rate, India can overtake China in the next 15-20 years only if (and a big if) China’s GDP growth becomes stagnant, which as we have seen from the trends, isn’t coming too soon. The recent America appeasement policies by India’s UPA government is gearing towards a compromise in India’s strategic military power and political strengh. Look back in history, once Saddam and Osama were US partners in crime, it will now be too risky for the world’s largest democracy to take the same route.
Indians have courage and we can fight anywhere in the world b’coz we have world class training facilities and as far as comparison with china is concerned Indian Armed Forces are quickly modernising and can hit hard.
@ARNOLD- HE NEEDS TO GET HIS STATS RIGHT…INDIANS ARE PEOPLE WHO FIGHT WHEN THEY HAVE TO….WE WOULDN WANT A COMMUNIST COUNTRY LIKE CHINA TO INVADE…IT WOULD TAKE MORE THAN DAYS OR MONTHS FOR CHINA TO CROSS THE MCMAHON LINE…DONT UNDERESTIMATE AND SAY WE OVER RATE OURSELVES…
OUR AIRFORCE IS MUCH SUPERIOR AND WITH THE INDUCTION 0F 126 NEW AIRCRAFT IN THE NEXT 8 TO 10YRS IT WILL WIPE OUT THE CHINESE AIR FORCE IF CHALLENGED……..
@DAVID-MY DAD’s A CAPTAIN IN THE INDIAN NAVY AND HE TOLD ME NUCLEAR LAUNCHED SUBS ARE IN THE PROCESS OF BIENG AQUIRED…WE ARE AWAITIN THE INDUCTION OF 2 AIR CRAFT CARRIERS IN 2008 AND 2009 RESPECTIVELY…
AND TO ALL- PLS DON UNDERSTIMATE INDIA AND ITS PEOPLE…WE ARE PEACE LOVING BUT IF WE ARE ATTACKED THERS NO MERCY FOR THE INVADERS…FUTURE FAVOURS OUR GROWTH…
—–CAUSE ITS RISING INDIA—-
JAI HIND
Please dont forget that India is a nuclear power and we are in the process of increasing the range of our nuclear capable AGNI missile which can almost reach Beijing. India has aquired SU 30MKI from Russia which is a world class fighter aircraft and so we surely got an edge over the chinese airpower. Airpower is not alone measured by the number of aircrafts or its technology, but the pilot who operates the aircraft. Iam proud to say that Indian pilots are the BEST in the world and even the Americans have acknowledged that after seeing the aerobics of our pilots in the recent Dubai air show. So there is no sense in talking that China will win a war against India within hours. I just want to tell Mr.Arnold that no country in the world has a proper tested defence system. The first country which is going to test the missile defence system around its city (Moscow) is Russia. Even the Chinese and the Americans don’t have proper missile defence system. I also recomend Mr.Arnold to read Indian history properly before commenting about Indians. Indians may not be rich but they not cowards to run away in case of war but will die in our homeland. In 10-15 years India will surely become a super power. JAI HIND
Hi guys india is developing an asymetric war capability..
India ia having its own missile defene system.India have a tested a laser weapon system.KALi and DURGA which is operational.
India is developing hypersonic plane avatar which can deliver missiles n nuclear weapons in enemy territory n return back safely to base it is unidentified by radars…
and moreover we ar not as at 1962..
we have stockpile of nuclear weapons why not we try in against china if china declares war or to start a war against india ..I want the entire nuclear weapons to be dropped instantly..by a single launch…just imagine the result there will be no china.It dosent mean that we are ahimsa country
we ll use all the possibility according to the enemy to win a war…
G.Vinod - “Please dont forget that India is a nuclear power and we are in the process of increasing the range of our nuclear capable AGNI missile which can almost reach Beijing.”
It is still a fraction of the capabilities of Chinese ICBMs, many of which have capabilities to target over 12000 kms. The 3500 km Agni 3, still under testing, looks tame.
G.Vinod - “India has aquired SU 30MKI from Russia which is a world class fighter aircraft and so we surely got an edge over the chinese airpower.”
China has the same aircrafts, as Sukhoi Su-30MK3. Additionally they also manufacture indigenous Chengdu J10, a 4.5th generation combat fighter.
G.Vinod - “Airpower is not alone measured by the number of aircrafts or its technology, but the pilot who operates the aircraft.”
I agree here, that is something very important, good pilots and not only machines. NATO forces have realised it due to their critical failures in the Kosovo conflict.
@ vasanth - “India ia having its own missiloe defene system.India have a tested a laser weapon system.KALi and DURGA which is operational.”
Kali and Durga as laser ‘death rays’ are still concept and far from being operational, no more than the Star Wars project. I cannot see how a conceptual idea can be operational.
@ vasanth - “India is developing hypersonic plane avatar which can deliver missiles n nuclear weapons in enemy territory n return back safely to base it is unidentified by radars…”
Avatar is a concept under development like most other military concepts in India. We will have to wait till it is operational to comment whether it is nuclear capable or not. In contrast China has indigenously developed and deployed a 4.5th generation fighter, the J 10 and India is yet to deploy its LCA which is a 4th generation aircraft under development for over two decades.
@ vasanth - “we have stockpile of nuclear weapons why not we try in against china if china declares war or to start a war against india ..I want the entire nuclear weapons to be dropped instantly..by a single launch…just imagine the result there will be no china.”
I can’t imagine that China could be eliminated by the entire nuclear stockpile of India. The highest yield of an Indian nuke is 49 kilotons and India stockpile is estimated to be a maximum of 70 warheads. The blast radius of a 50 KT nuke is 10 kms at the most so we have (Pi X 10 X 10 X 70) = 22000 sq. km. as the maximum possible coverage of India’s nuclear stockpile. China’s area 9,596,960 sq. km. which means India’s stockpile can destroy no more than 0.22 % of Chinese territory. In comparison the 200 Chinese nukes have an average of 500 KT (highest 3.5 MT). At a conservative estimate of 30 km coverage radius per 250+ KT warhead, China can effectively cover (Pi X 30 X 30 X 200) = 565200 sq. km. With India’s area being 3,287,590 sq. km, Chinese warheads can effectively cover 17% of India’s territory, quite a terrifying prospect.
We accept that the Chinese got a huge military force compared to the Indians. But keeping such a
huge force does not mean that they can win a war easily. The effeciency of the Chinese military has not been really tested in the recent past. Indians got vast experience in fighting wars when compared to the Chinese. We don’t have to wipe out China but hitting their major cities with nuclear warheads itself will cause considerable amount of damage to them. The Americans took all military measures against Vietnam (even used chemical weapons against civilians), but lost the war at the end. Even if the Chinese got 4th or 5th generation fighter aircrafts, they are yet to be tested in wars for their effeciency.
PRC will face issues in the near future because most of its technology is picked off from Russia and Isreal like its J 10 fighters. They are also good in hyping up by all these secrecy. They have more to worry about things inside the country like Tibet and Xian while India has no such problems. People are always happier and better off in a democratic country than they could be in authoritarian China.
Arnold, I see that you have a magnificient capability to judge the Indian people! Nevertheless do not think that on being attacked by China or any one for that matter Indians will take it lying down. At that moment the world will witness our skill and experience i the art of war. This is not 1962, and China knows it better than you do.
According to you China has overwhelming strategic superiority over India. This statement or argument is hard to credit. China is a country which is so secretive in functioning, no one knows how many flaws and weaknesses it is hiding from the world.
Here is a simple example for you to take in mind: Remember the USSR? They were judged equal to the USA. But that was far from the truth.
I hope the above reply brings you closer to the facts.
Arnold is right. If a war broke out in the first place then india would not stand a chance against the huge chinese defence let alone win the war.
Vasanth, I doubt if Chinese are going to watch Indians throwing NUCLEAR WEAPONS on their head n do nothing “in return”.
Well Mossad India has some problems like Tibet. It is in its North Eastern states who want independance, then Bihar and Bengal because of Naxalite militants, in South India because of LTTE and Islamic terrorists in Kashmir. All of these are so violent they make Tibetan rebels look like Mother Teresa. LTTE even has its air force and tanks.
Dude
We don’t need to match China’s nuclear capability. We just need to give them a really bloody nose. And we are more then capable of giving PLA a huge walloping in the Himalayas. We don’t need to destroy the whole country. Just Shanghai and Beijing are enough.
I don’t think the Chinese are stupid enough to take us on in a direct confrontation. It’s more likely they will try to bleed us economically by supporting our enemies
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Economy :-
China’s average population + Pollution + Epidemics + Harsh work environment = ?????
Totalitarian government overthrown vs Democratic governments overthrown = ??????
To produce product worth $ 10000 it takes 7 times more resources than Japan,6 times vs USA,3 times vs India.
“To produce goods worth $10,000, for example, we need seven times more resources than Japan, nearly six times more than the United States and, perhaps most embarrassing, nearly three times more than India. Things can’t, nor should they be allowed to go on like that. - CHINA’S DEPUTY MINISTER OF THE ENVIRONMENT
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,345694,00.html”
Greenspan says that chinese stock market boom (not economy) will bust like tech bubble.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6686453.stm
MNC are diversifying in order to de-risk by investing in India.
India have more skilled labour than China, and more English speaking people than US ans UK combined.
———————————————————-
China have ICBM & more nukes (in power and quantity) , India is pursuing Surya.
Why is India behind ??
Because we started late and…
Because china had a…. ahem a helping hand.
http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house/hr105851-html/ch2bod.html#anchor4775503
http://www.senate.gov/~govt-aff/080599_china_espionage_statement.htm#N_14_
If you don’t want to read, China stole America’s nuclear && missile technologies and god knows what else.
I hope we don’t take the path China did, we should preserve our environment because it will be LOT more costly to fix mistake China did (driest nation).
But sadly by 2050 India will have more population than China, even though production will increase and so will spending (that should surpass China’s). But what about resources ?
aby
you please get your info checked
1>chinese su30 mkm is inferior to indian mki
2>j10 is not a 4.5 generation plane its j-17 n indian lca n j17 are evenly matched
3>iaf is about to acquire 126 multirole fighter (probly mig-35 “the raptorkiller) and our neighbours are still playing with toys (j6 nj10)
I have checked the information and I am sorry, the facts look like they are against you and in favour of Aby’s article.
1) China doesn’t develop Su-30 MKM nor use it. MKM is a variant of Su-30 MKI developed by India for export to Malaysia. China operates Su-30 MKK which is considered on par with Indian Su-30 MKI
2) J-10 is a 4.5th generation fighter currently operated by China’s PLAAF. J-17 Thunder is an export 4th generation fighter for Pakistan. LCA is yet under development and a 4th generation fighter which would take a year or two at the very least to deploy.
3) IAF has 58 of 4.5th generation fighters in its fleet, all of them Su-30 compared to China’s 200 comprising of J-10 and Su-30.China’s PLAAF is significantly larger than that of IAF by several orders of magnitude. I doubt China’s PLAAF has planned a freeze for the next 5-10 years, the time frame India is going to acquire the new aircrafts.
Check the sources and their references below
4th Generation Fighters
PLA Air Force
Indian Air Force
Comparison of military might between India and China requires an eye not just to focus on hardware as the inventories of weapon sytem. India did lose 1962 war and yet, it was not either due to stronger Chinese weapon system or strategy much less organizational upbeats. it was just quirk of circumstances where India lost heart. It shall perhaps be music to the ear of most that the 1962 Chinese adventure left such a scar on the face of Chinese decision makers that they have not yet been able to make good. It had to close down 140,000 primary schools. This just one adverse effect of war spending. While the present generation of Chinese leadership can not as foolish as it was then under Mao/ Lin Biao dispensation, it is sure that such eventualities will push China 20 yeras back to the state 1980’s when it started to come up.
Scholars in India and China stand up dated that the tow countries would better as “partners” in the words of Prof Pan Zhenqiang or at best “friendly rivals” as Prof MD Nalpat viewed while sharing a dialogue on CCTV 9 on 06 Aug 2007.
if indo-china war ever breaks out, the most reliable allies of india will be chinese people themselves. i am not joking. chinese people are fed up with their communist govt. and they want a better govt. according to official estimates there were 80,000 riots (or protests as the govt calls it) last year in china. china is very often called a “scary place” and not without a reason. someone said indian people are poor? really! u know china is a country where millions work in mines for $2 a week and their mine record is worst in the world. don’t trust everything u read about china in press. talk to a real chinese person and he will tell u that no one likes chinese govt. in india we have democracy, people are free to abuse govt. Not so in china. if war breaks out, there will be chaos everywhere in china and that country is just going to fall apart. (keep in mind “80,000 riots were in peacetime”).
This argument is really sutpid. What possbile reason would there be for China to attack India? And btw a lot of this information im sure is biased, i mean see Indian people and American ppl but where r the chinese ppl themselves lol to backup with credible data?
And Raj, actually the Chinese ppl have learnt to accept their government. True there are still riots and protests but they are usually small one of cases like in rural china somewhere. I know this because I live in Hong Kong and regularly visit China (the major cities) and do business there and trust me no one there gives a crap about politics. The government is mainly communist in name but in reality they are actually quite open. Of course there are still restrictions such as the media and strict clampdowns on riots and protests but this is improving especially with criticisms from the West in particular due to the upcoming of the Beijing 2008 Olympics. The government is also taking big steps in opening up its government. Now they are recruiting Western-educated Chinese people and putting them into high positions in the communist party. The government no longer really cares whether these party members are radically communist, as long as they support the party and not try to overthrow the government is fine with this. Also the president of China atm is actually very efficient, he’s making great steps to cool down the overheating company and to open up the country to the rest of the world, such as recently he allowed journalists to come and visit major military bases.
I wouldn’t say China is a scary place, as long as ppl don’t go all out to try and overthrow the government and put in provoking articles on the internet and newspapers, the government is going to care. China is not a ‘big brother’ country where ppl are under 24 hour surveillance and get hauled away for the slightest hint of dissatisfaction at the government.
As for your comment, Raj on the miners getting paid $2 a week, the miners obviously do get paid unfortunately little but in China if the miners there are millions more willing to take their place, so the country isn’t going to fall apart any time, especially since the government is strongly working to improve the infrastructure (national health service, increasing fees, getting rid of corrupt officials seizing rural land territory etc)
India wants peace and always tried to resolve any matter with full support. presently both India and china are on their way to developement.No doubt india and china are the powerful countries for this region.In 10-15 years both will acquire status of superpower.As a superpower, apart from pointing each other we should give some concentration to Asian developement.If Sino-Indian war occurs then Powerful countries of asia will be fighting then there will be Imbalance in this region.Both countries know this fact.So, In future Let’s be hopeful that we will not be facing war with china.
Jai hind…
Yes let’s hope so, besides both countries have always been very pacifist countries by nature and actually a lot of historical events that happened to one country happened to another e.g. colonization.
Neither countries have actually invaded other countries and they are both usually good friends with their neighbours (except for Pakistan and India) which is slightly tense at the moment.
Hi all,
Though I am an Indian let me admit that we are too emotional when it comes to the pride of our country. This has been our greatest strenth which unites us, and sometimes it is the major weakness we have. the chances of Indo China war again is extremely unlikely. Both the leaderships are very matured, people are mingling with each other on day to day basis…. I do not see any chances of conflict. even it araises, that would get sorted out in the dialogues.
Unlike the other neighbour we have, there is no (visible) ego between India & China, where both the countries need to resort to wars to satisfy home politics. Let us continue to be nice to your neighbours and expect the same from them too.
Hi Guys,
Did you notice that not a single Chinese comment here. I don’t know the reason but I doubt whether they really really have interest in discussion, they seems to be lost in the newly found consumerism and wealth. I think the democracy can put India in a comfortable position some years down the line. When a government can be held responsible for any action, then it becomes more efficient; where as Chinese PLA is not concerned about it’s people reaction.
So I guess, in the long run, India will be in a comfortable position. Don’t think about war, I am talking about economic stability, equality of human rights. Anyway at the end of the day, what matters is the prosperity and rights of citizens.
Robins Tomar:
I myself am Chinese, the flag you see above is the Hong Kong flag a region which belongs to China. I regularly visit China and do business there so i guess i will now make for the chinese minority in this thread lol.
The Chinese do have a lot of interest in discussion, as a matter of fact you should know that a huge percentage of the youth population spent a lot of their time on the internet chatting and going on forums etc. It is just that the Chinese are a very closed community, and a lot of the forum banter is contained within China. Also bear in mind that the Chinese first language is obviously Chinese not English so y should they particpate in international and fluent English-speaking forums
Robins Tomar said:
Chinese PLA is not concerned about it’s people reaction
May I point out that this comment is completely wrong. First of all the Chinese PLA stands for People’s Liberation Army and I dont think you are referring to that in this case probably the CHinese government would be more suitable. And the CHinese government btw actually cares quite a lot about people’s reactions. THere are only a small minority of people who care about speaking out against media restrictions and these usually foreigners or resentful Chinese against the governement who want to create trouble and get their own back. A lot of people feel happy about the country they live in, they are not opressed or anything and as long as they don’t cause troble for the governemtn threatening to throw the country into finanical or political government, no one will bother them
The Chinese government cares a lot for their ppl, if you read articles within China by other forum-writers (not government-related) you will find that the government is doing its best to stamp corruption particularly in rural areas where there have been many reports of illegal land grabs and threats. Is the western media which portrays the Chinese government has purely communist and only money-minded and not giving a dam about their country thus relaying false information to ignorant westerners such as yourself.
@ Raj - “if indo-china war ever breaks out, the most reliable allies of india will be chinese people themselves. i am not joking. chinese people are fed up with their communist govt. and they want a better govt.”
It is doubtful such a case would be likely. The Chinese people would rather support their own country and government than support a foreign nation like India if a war is to take place, however much you might think they hate their government. Patriotism exists in everyone, even among the Chinese.
@ Robins Tomar - “Did you notice that not a single Chinese comment here. I don’t know the reason..”
The reason is quite straightforward and simple. While India or US has a large segment of English speakers, China has as many English speakers as United States has French speakers. Unless of course, they reside in some English speaking country like US or UK.
@ Robins Tomar - “When a government can be held responsible for any action, then it becomes more efficient; where as Chinese PLA is not concerned about it’s people reaction.”
To be honest, the government of China is far more effective, efficient and responsible than India despite the latter being a democracy. The wide gap between economy, military and infrastructure speaks a lot more than what the media here would have us believe.
Thanks Aby you pretty much summarised it up for me in nice simple phrases
can you imagin aby knows how many bomns india have
u looks to me some kind of spy…………lol
can u provide some link for that
secondly chienese su 30mkk is inferior to mki that is china is asking russia for new su 37
@ black hawk - “..can you imagin aby knows how many bomns india have”
Anyone aware of military and political developments can well imagine it. Estimates about nuclear stockpiles can be easily made using available data on nuclear tests, fuel availability, proliferation, etc. Such estimation and studies are often done by nuclear proliferation experts and agencies, it does not need spies to do something like that. A study done by Carnegie Endowment for International Peace has been provided and you may find further resources from the said link.
Nuclear Forces India - 2005
@ black hawk - “secondly chienese su 30mkk is inferior to mki that is china is asking russia for new su 37″
The IAF Su-30 MKI is nothing but improvised Su-30 Flanker-C aircrafts with enhanced avionics using Israeli, French and Indian equipments. The PLA Su-30 MKK and MK2 are the Chinese variants of Flanker-C customised to their own needs. Normally, export versions of military equipments (including aircrafts) are scaled down by the manufacturer countries to prevent classified technology getting into foreign hands. India and China procure such Su-30s from Russia and upgrade them with better avionics and other components, the basic airframe systems and engines remaining the same. Both the Su-30 MKI and Su-30 MK2 are 4.5th generation air superiority fighters, with capabilities that are comparable and not radically different. If you have any alternative arguement or theory to prove otherwise, feel free to do so.
lol china and india aren’t likely to go to war.
hey on a different subject who here thinks if india will join the sco (shanghai co-operation organisation) which is firmly links china russia and strategic middle east countries together, or will india join NATO and aid america if china enters a war with the us
Do we really need to fight? We are young and the future of our mother earth depends on our decision.What is the use of fighting?Who has gained from war?Its always a loss.Did Germany gain anything after WW2? NO.We are doing nothing but wasting resources.I understand that it is a war of civilization but what is the use.Of course, if provoked, we won’t leave anyone, even US.But what will be the end result?
People say that Hitler was a cruel man and because of him millions died.What about USA.I feel that because of them millions have died.We did not learn anything after WW2. We are preparing for WW3.and this time the result will be worse.Who says we have just 100 warheads..Nuclear tests were also conducted during 80’s in India.but I don’t see any use of it. Please talk about peace.Do not feel that I am a cold blooded man.If war starts, even I can kill at least 10.
Friends, at least for the sake of humanity,talk about peace not war.
In my opinion.. neither China nor India is so stuipt to get engaged in war where the economy is bomming and there is a huge inflow of money… well we both are like lions.. we wont bother each other if we remain in our boundaries… and as far as anuracal pradesh is concerend… China knows its India’s thats y they do make it a big issue.. all they want is the water in the rivers to make the life of their citizens better. and i think its allright.. coz Its in the legacy of our great nations (INDIA) that we share wat we have…
Cheers
Its very stupid to compare China with any other country. First, we have only ideas about their real potential. But they do give US real scare. And their military budget is very huge when compared to a Nation like India.
Yes, India is a growing power but there are lot of loopholes. A war would prove disastrous to India. We are yet to induct indigenous Tejas whereas China have done that long ago.
But then China still doesnt enjoys a yawning gap. They are much stronger but not invincible.
A war between two will end up without any winners. I dont think neither India or China will want their nations to be counted among the war-torn nations that we see today.
On the final note, i do think China will be a power to reckon in near future whereas India will be still catching up.
The Su-30MKI version is a development of the Su-27 series. Though a variant of Su-30, the Su-30 MKI is significantly more advanced than the basic Su-30 or the Chinese Su-30 MKK aircraft.
Specifications (Su-30MKK)
Data from KNAAPO[2]
General characteristics
Crew: 2
Length: 21.9 m (71 ft 10 in)
Wingspan: 14.7 m (45 ft 11 in)
Height: 6.4 m (21 ft 0 in)
Wing area: m² (ft²)
Empty weight: kg (lb)
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg (54,900 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 34,500 kg (76,100 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31F turbofans, 123 kN (27,600 lbf)[6] each
Performance
Never exceed speed: Mach 2.0
Maximum speed: 2,120 km/h (1,140 knots, 1,320 mph) at altitude
Range: 3,000 km (1,600 nm, 1,900 mi)
Service ceiling: 17,300 m (56,800 ft)
Thrust/weight: 1.00
Takeoff run: 550 m (1,800 ft)
Indian mki
[edit] Specifications (Sukhoi Su-30MKI)
General characteristics
Crew: 2
Length: 22.10 m (72 ft 51 in)
Wingspan: 14.70 m (48 ft 23 in)
Height: 6.38 m (22 ft 89 in)
Wing area: 62.04 m² (667.8 ft²)
Empty weight: 17,700 kg (39,300 lb)
Loaded weight: 34,500 kg (76,100 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg (85,600 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31FP turbofans with thrust vectoring, 131 kN (29,400 lbf) each
Performance
Range: 5,000 km (1,600 nm, 1,900 mi) unrefueled
Service ceiling: 20,000 m (59,000 ft)
Rate of climb: >303 m/s (60,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 556 kg/m² (113 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.77
I think with this it has been clear that indian sukhoi is beter than chinese
Sriram:
Though I am an Indian let me admit that we are too emotional when it comes to the pride of our country. This has been our greatest strenth which unites us, and sometimes it is the major weakness we have.
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Well pointed. ok lets analyze the possible reason behind it.
Before that we have to admit certain facts that China’s military strength is more advanced than India’s. Both the countries having good relationship with outside world, this clearly tells that India and China are well civilized and friendly to other nations, and love to live peacefully with other nations. So the chance of war between these two countries will be 0.1% [despite the cold war and political play games because of various reasons]
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If we notice the pattern of the messages posted by Indians in this thread, everyone accepts the fact China’s military is advanced than India’s, but no one is ready to accept the defeat including myself. Indians are trying to convince and match the opponent’s strength. Because India has faced invasion in the past. So when it comes to war, be it China or Pakistan or whoever it is, we don’t want the history to be repeated in the name of Trade or Friendship or war. I’ am not trying to justify history, the colonizers showed their strength and military might at that time. But everything changed now, gone are those ignorant days/peoples.
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so given the scenario if China trying to attack India, and manages to wipe out its defense systems, still we are not going to accept defeat, they will face retaliation from the civilians too. such is the fighting spirit of Indians.
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We should maintain this fighting spirit, but we sould use this energy in our country’s development process. Russia, China, India and Pakistan should develop better relationship and focus on peace and development process.
Hi @Abhishek Chatterjee, I agree that China has also to play against poverty. But China is a communist country and anything regarding Military,the goverment can take decision with full autonoumy. But in India the situation is not so. It has to be answerable to parliament(In china also but it is communist). Also here in India, there are so many linguistic,religious and cast divisions. Because of this the terrorism has much penetrated into India(by outside world). But the situation is not much similar in China. There linguisitic,caste and religious difference are not so much. There people dont have rights to make strike against the goverment but in India the people have rights to tell their thoughts. Because of all these things in India it is comparably diificult to come to a solution while comparing with other countries.
Hi, my Indian friends. I am a Chinese engineer working in NYC. I don’t something about India but have never been to. Guess you are the same on the other side. China, like India, is a country for peace not war. The history had proved and would continue to tell. I understand the 1962’s sino-india war may have triggered emotional feelings among Indians to be a stronger nation. However, as I believe, a more important aspect to be a truely great country is to study and learn history. Pure confidence in advantages of weapons or technologies can only damage your own country if sending troops once again cross the McMahon line without a concern for the other side. Tibet is a part of China. India may have concern but the wise choice is to accept that in the heart not only in signed document. Think about if China wants to support people in India’s northeastern provinces. All Chinese love their beloved country to their deepest in their hearts. Democracy is good for not a consideration for us generations. Chinese have freedom to do everything, just like what we can in USA. The life there is much better than you may imagine. If you don’t believe so, just buy a ticket and fly to China which is widely open to any integrited person like you. If you go to China, what might shock you is that, as my friends who traveled to India told(one in 2001 for personal business and one in 2006 for Oracle), India is simply not in the same league as China. In any case, don’t fool yourselves to believe you can beat China. Of course, China would be very friendly to you if you choose to do that too.
Let’s make friends.
mike and arnold.,i agree that china army and airforce is much bgger in size than india .they have more menpower,tanks,artillary,fighter planes,submarines, missile but china has its border touching wid many countries(india,russia,mangolia,vietnam,n.korea,s.korea,break away parts of union of soviet socialist republic(krygistan,kazakistan,tazakstan etc,myanmar,laos,thialand,pakistan,also threat from japan and taiwan+USA).SO WHAT I MEAN TO SAY THAT IF WAR BROKE OUT BETWEEN INDIA AND CHINA ,then china can’t bring entire military,airforce and navy(indian navy is superior than china) on the indian border. they have to keep huge military, air force, and navy at its border touching widother countries as mentioned above.(china has its border touching wid many countries).they have threats from japan,USA,taiwan and even if china is having friendly relation wid other countries touching its border.china can,t trust them.china have to station huge forces,tanks,artillary,fighter planes in a state of readiness at di border. on di other hand , indai faces threats only from pakistan and china and india,s other neighbouring countries are having cordial relation wid india and in case they dare to attack india,then these countries(lanka,nepal,bhutan )are so feable that they can be overcome by our paramilitary forces.so finally wid india and china going into war wid each other . indian armed forces will be a great match for chinees and this time it will be the reverse of 1962(himalyan blunder
Mr. Yong is right Chinese people and Pakistan people are good. I have lot of chinese friend and pakistani friend and they like India too.
i had a something to say mr.arnold swaznegar u say chinise can defeat india within a hour and indian r running for cover? ridicules thought when us can’t win a war with iraq in five year than how can china win agnist india in hours
China made a costly mistake in the 1990s: it created many world-class facilities, but badly under-invested in education. Chinese researchers reveal that a staggering percentage of rural children could not finish secondary education. India, meanwhile, has quietly but persistently improved its educational provisions, especially in the rural areas. For sustainable economic development, the quality and quantity of human capital will matter far more than those of physical capital. India seems to have the right policy priorities and if China does not invest in rural education soon, it may lose its true competitive edge over India – a well-educated and skilled work-force that drives manufacturing success.
Source: http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=6887
Dear All
I have tried to read the posts above and have noticed that a number of exchanges have been based on the assumption that India and China are likely to be in adversarial position in near future. This may or may not come about to be true. I think all sensible people will hope that India and China do not enter into a conflict . Even a conventional conflict is far too costly (Iraq) and a neulear conflict will be disaster.
However I have a few questions in my mind on which some of you may like to educate me.
1. One party rule in China has certain advantages and disadvantages. In the medium term and long term what is the balance . Is one party rule extracting a price which will add up to something big at a later date or not? Let’s be honest. Democracy or totalitarianism is partly the result of historical circumstances. We can’t get all what we want.
2. Does china have religion in a similar form as the West. I know India is unique in this respect.
3. Are Chinese festivals celebrated in a manner similar to western festivals or Indian festivals ?
4. How many public holidays does China have ?
5. I am informed that there is goodwill in China for Indians and Indian cultural contacts with China have a long history, just as there is natural goodwill in India for China and Chinese cultural influences. Is this true ?
I agree with Mr. Yong. I’m a Chinese doing postgrad. studies in Melbourne. I believe every1 of us would fight to death for our nation against any invaders (who doesn’t want to do this for you own country? raise up your hand). However, you’ll also find that we are extremely friendly to any1 who wants to be a friend (get a ticket, send me emails, n i’ll show you around).
Robins, honestly, if you know our nature, you would have laught at this article just by looking at the title, although the author looks to me is a Chinese. S/He may belong to the group which only produce stuff that westerners “want” to see so that they won’t lose their source of putting food on their tables.
Robins Tomar - “China made a costly mistake in the 1990s: it created many world-class facilities, but badly under-invested in education.”
I am afraid I have to disagree. Education without infrastructure would lead to lack of opportunities and ultimately brain brain. Both India and China had a history of massive brain drain during the pre-1990s socialist era. The trend continues till date in India while in a much smaller extent in China. The view that China’s education is not on par with India is based on the assumption that India scores over China because of its grip on English. There is no factual evidence to suggest that Chinese universities score below Indian universities in terms of quality in education or research. If the various global rankings of universities are anything to go by, China’s universities score consistently above the Indian universities mainly in teaching, research and employment.
In technical skills and capability Chinese engineers are as good, if not better than their Indian counterparts. This created a situation in which, by design a large number of skilled Chinese engineers and scientists have to remain back home, leading to the nations economic growth. The economic boom of China would not have been possible without the supporting infrastructure and military security, both of which owe largely to Chinese personnel.
India on the other hand has a large pool of skilled manpower but due to the lack of opportunities and their apparent grip on English, they end up in British, American, Australian or Canadian shores, contributing to these nations on their economic growths while their nation has to cope up with middle level skills. The result is evident here too, India’s infrastructure is woefully below that of China as is evident from the great mess that is Mumbai (Bombay).
In the long run, a nation’s economic growth does not depend on its manpower alone but on the measures it can do to keep its manpower productive. China with its balance of socialist and free market policies and a strong infrastructural backbone has achieved that quite well. It is still the investor’s favourite when it comes to manufacturing hub and it still the only Asian country which has a loud voice in world affairs (look UN Security Council).
Aby- “Both India and China had a history of massive brain drain during the pre-1990s socialist era. The trend continues till date in India while in a much smaller extent in China.”
In India, there is much talk about something called “Reverse brain drain.” NRIs (Non Residential Indians) are coming back to India in numbers not lesser then china.
Aby- “India on the other hand has a large pool of skilled manpower but due to the lack of opportunities and their apparent grip on English, they end up in British, American, Australian or Canadian shores, contributing to these nations on their economic growths while their nation has to cope up with middle level skills.”
You are absolutely right. Infrastructure is a big concern for India and I think Indian government is very much aware of this and hundreds of billion dollars are in pipeline for thousands of infrastructure projects. Golden Quadrilateral project and Delhi Mumbai Industrial Corridor are some of the major examples of these kind. India also learned (obviously from China) that SEZs are efficient way of manufacturing and also for doing business. Hundreds of SEZs are also being developed across nations specially coastal areas, although facing public agitation in few cases. I understand that might not be the case in China as public is not allowed to protest against Government’s move.
My argument is not to criticize Chinese policies, but if you look beyond today; there is much to foresee. India’s current endeavors focusing on future must also be considered.
I am a indian student studying in russia.i agree that china is a developing country but no one can ignore indians development.if in case of war(hope never it happens).we indians will defeat the chinese
5 years is more than enough for india to built or buy nuclear or any other type of weapons far ahead than chienese2nd class weapon but they can never compare with indian army & power.i lakh army of pakistan has surrendered at india”s foot in 1971.
@arjun and ajaay
your not a stutdent studying in russia your flag is ameriacn and how can india ever beat china, china are better at everything………..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_active_troops.
Well Indians have a lot of homework to do in the next few years
We certainly need to beef up our AIRFORCE to be in the ratio
of at least 1.25:1.5 visavis the chinese AIRFORCE
When we get closer to America we can try to acquire F-16s, F-22s and B-52 and B51 which will give us an advantage over the Chinese Airforce.
We need to also increase our man-power in AUX Units of our airforce and
in the Paratroop divisions.
War Scenario:
I doubt any one would be foolish enough to engage in Nuclear War
So let us rule this out for the moment.
As far as Ground War is concerned the Himalayan obstacle in between the
two nations will limit th US of tanks. So one can stop imagining TANK battles
between Indian and Chinese Armed forces.
One thing to remember: Since the Border of Burma with China is very mountainous and the Border to Burma with India not so mountainous with
large sections of plain territory. Indian Tanks will have no problems
Sweeping into Burma to preserve their Flanks.
So All Ground war between India and China will be restricted to Moutain Units
Which is why Indians are serious about raising Indian Alpine Divisions to
a strength of at-least two million troops with Advanced body armour and
firepower.
Also I am not sure Indian and Chinese Navies will travel the distance to engage each other at sea, But India will surely try to choke the straits of Malacca using their Naval forces.
Indians will try everything in their power to dominate the entire Bay of Bengal completely using their Navy. The Chinese can also kiss goodbye to their
base in the COCO ISLANDs off Burma.
The Straits of Malacca are a choke point for China and if US also turns hostile towards China then China could face food shortages.
So the MAIN ADVESARIES IN an INDIA china war would be the INDIAN
AIRFORCE VS THE PLAAF.
Let us do our homework very well so that we can cause quite a lot of damage
to the Chinese airforce without suffering much on our own in case hostilities
break out. The NEXT 3 years are very crucial for the INDIAN AIRFORCE.
Vishnu Sharma-”…try to acquire F-16s, F-22s and B-52 and B51 which will give us an advantage over the Chinese Airforce.”
Yes, you are right Mr.Sharma In fact we already have taken some major steps towards acquiring F-16 Falcons & Mig-35. Though, I am not sure about F-22 Raptor & B-51/52 Bombers
Report goes here>
—
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3405
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3512
—
The Bulk of the fighting between the Indian and Chinese Armies
will occur is mountainous terrain. Whether it takes place in Kashmir (Ladakh)
or Arunachal Pradesh.
Hence, I have included more information on Mountain warfare.
Although this article has been written by a Pakistani
It does provide some insights and is worth reading.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0PBZ/is_5_84/ai_n6252063
India needs to place special emphasis on
raising the “best of the breed” CRACK units
for this kind of warfare. We need both Quantity and Quality.
All scenarious should be investigated from
Co-ordinating Para-drops with dug in and held positions to using noiseless JET-PACKS to scale sheer cliffs, to rapelling up sheer slopes to using Skis and
snow scooters.
We need atleast 2 million mountain troops for the Indian ARMY to be effective in these areas.
The INDIAN ALPINE CORPS (IAC) needs acquire a new menacing dimension.
This guy imadris is ia paki spy in india….
shoot that paki
Actually it will be bad for both india and china to go for war..both wil lbecome so backward..
around 150 years back.so better for both of them to move ahead.. no war.. peace..
@Aby
The end result is China walking far ahead of India in military power with overpowering superiority if both conventional and nuclear forces are taken into account. However for the next couple of years, India and Japan will continue to boast of the best and most capable conventional military forces in Asia…
=>
Dear Aby, Your article clearly states that if we keep the nuclear factor at bay…India and Japan both are superior to China in a conventional engagement. Why the extra debate???
Do you consider a Nuclear standoff eminent between China and India in any scenario?
Then let me tell you…if at all a war really starts..none of the two countries would aim at territorial capture or attempt at total territorial conquest, targeted at elimination of the political existence of the foe. The battles would mostly be surgical…therefore the possibility of a Nuclear exchange is as remote as Andromeda Galaxy. More because, as you mut be aware that both India and China have a Registered and Official “No First Use” policy. So if the Nuclear factor is nutralised and by your own account India is superior in a conventional warfare…then who do you expect to dominate the next possible or impossible war? Your response is solicited.
I stumbled onto this thread by chance and found it most amusing. The overwhelming sense that I am getting is that a large number of Indian commentators have an unhealthy degree of blind patriotism.
At the present time, economically, militarily and educationally, China is at least 15-25 years ahead of India. Not to say that they will always be that far ahead, but I am not seeing any fundamental factors that could change this. If anything, I could see this gap increasing in the near future, given the much broad Chinese industrial base and its increasingly cutting edge technical know how. The strategic issue China faces (and no one really know how it is going to pan out) is the uncertainty and risks involved in the continued transition from a planned economy to a market orientated economy, and from a totalitarian form of government to a (inevitably) more open and responsive governing arrangement. I note that many commentators rather conveniently shouted something about China being a communist country thus inferior. This exhibits fundamental lack of understanding of what China is today and an obvious overdose of brain wish. Besides the world’s largest democracy was beaten by the world largest communist country in lifting more of its own citizens out of absolute poverty. Democracy is not be all and end all here, at China/India’s stage of development, effective government is much more important. After all Kissinger termed India as a Democratic Mess.
Coming back and talk about military balances. Strategically India sees China as potential rival No.1 (the 1962 war had much to do on this), while China probably puts India in the No.4 spot of the potential threat list (and threat levels goes down exponentially). This really says it all. Most of the military capabilities China acquired in recent years did not even have India in mind. Many commentator fantasized about nuclear annihilation of China by India. Let’s leave at just that since even the worst outcome of (however remote) an armed conflict between India and China would not result a nuclear confrontation and the nuclear odds is staggeringly against India too. On conventional capabilities, China’s advantage is overwhelmingly in pretty much all areas of armed forces. One factor in India’s favour is that the Indian military has been put on a war footing for much longer and much more recently. The last conflict China was involved in was the 1979 invasion of Vietnam, which exposed major inadequacies within the PLA and led to the first phase of the modernisation (the second phase was driven by the dazzling capability demonstrated by the US during the first Iraqi war, and the third phase was clearly triggered by Taiwan’s apparently change of policy in pursuit of independence or recognition of separation from PRC). However, the talks of Indian pilots (or other human factors) being superior should be put down to the blind patriotism again.
Having said all this, it is evident that both country is interested in building a constructive relationship and no one is interested in a conflict. Why make war while one could make money. Besides there is no real point of friction since the border issue is on the way of being resolved (unless the blind patriotism prevents a sensible deal being struck).
On the 1962 border conflict. It is interesting that it caused such a long last impact in the national psyche of India, while it is hardly an issue for the Chinese. This is understandable. A nation’s self belief of being the leader of the third world, an invincible regional power and a mentor to the young nation of China was chattered in those shorts months. Even of today, India is still unable to face the cause and course of the 1962 conflict, thus the popular conviction of sometimes plainly ridiculous beliefs. I note one commentator’s story of how China shut down 140,000 schools to pay for that border conflict. The conflict was fought at corps level (roughly 3 divisions, each were less than half the strength of a traditional US division) for roughly 2 months. If this intensity of fighting shuts down 140,000 school, then the Korean War (while China was in much worse economic conditions) would have eliminated that country completely.
India would do well in digging a bit deeper into that chapter of the history. One comprehensive reference I would recommend is “India’s China War”, by Neville Maxwell, an independent Australian/British scholar who was in India during that period of time and conducted extensive research afterwards (not just from Indian sources) on the subject. Unfortunately, one could not get that book in India as it is still banned there. This only prolongs and intensifies the myth of India’s innocence in that conflict and encourages the laughable blind patriotism shown in this thread.
@nofal
“how can india ever beat china, china are better at everything………..”
Well it will happen pretty much the same way how Pakistan will beat India. We will learn it from you guys and then we will implement it over the rest of the world. Btw have you decided how you going to do it? You mentioned it soo many times in the india Pakistan thread. We are being little impatient here to know the secret. Please hurry. thx.
@Chineese friends
I am an indian living in Australia and I have more chineese friend here than Indian and I agree with you they are very friendly and peaceful with a smile always. They don’t open up much mostly because of communication problem only exception is the ppl from hongkong who are generally good in english. But they are all very nice. If the majority of mainland china is like that I see no chance of war in near future because we indian are also peaceful and more than happy to live with what we have got.
china is a ROGUE state.
All ROGUE states bite dust no matter how powerful they are.
Take the erstwhile Soviet Union for example.
That will be the fate of the chinese state.
Mark my words.
@jy
“Many commentator fantasized about nuclear annihilation of China by India. Let’s leave at just that since even the worst outcome of (however remote) an armed conflict between India and China would not result a nuclear confrontation and the nuclear odds is staggeringly against India too.”
Would request you to kindly come out of your self perceived bubbly dream that the bulk of the Indian commentators are blogging out of sheer rhetoric or in your jittery phraseology “blind patriotism”. Read my post above, might enlighten your suffering mind…AND…seems you didn’t read Aby’s atricle meticulously…He himself has quoted that China scores well above India if both conventional and nuclear arsenals are put together…otherwise in sheer conventional warfare…India definitely scores well above China. Now would you call this “blind patriotism” of the writer of the article?
@Aby
Waiting buddy for your response.
@Roy
If perchance nofal whispers that dear secret in your hairy ear…plz double check it out with me ;-). I am one of her victims of unsolicited “Secrets and Facts”. lol.
There is no comparison between india and China. China is decades ahead of india. read the analysis of jim rogers, an american investor who drove through the entire world including india and china. he says india is marred with corruption and in adequate infrastrcture, though a democracy it takes months or years to make a small decision on development versus china where things happen at lighting speed. The indian population will get out of controlled and most of them will be weak, malnourished and poor putting strain on indian economy.
India can’t even handle pakistan and reclaim its terrority. In a convential war between india and china without nuclear weapons, new delhi will fall in a matter of days.
@eddy
……and his undoubtable prowness on Military Affairs. Thanks for enlightening me and the rest.
I am indeed fascinated with your nostradamus like predictions. Cheers! But tell me what the hell are all those defense strategists and think tanks think of themselves while pouring gibberish about the class/fighting techniques/world class training etc etc..of the Indian Armed Forces??? Its unfortunate that they are not paying heed to American “Investors” like Mr. Jim Rogers
As many I stumbled on this website and I found some really interesting discussion. This is a well known fact that China and India were friends at the beginning. Let me remind my chinese friends that India refused UN seat and offered that to China and supported their stand. 1965 war changed everything where there were allegations and counter allegations that both of China and India are crossing their legitimate lines of control. But that was 42 years back.
In spite of efforts to revive that friendship China continues to be suspicious of India. China supports Pakistan and helps the country which doesnt have a democratic government and a strong radical community which has a good history of turning to Frankenstein and bite the hand of its creator. But the fact that Pakistan has nuclear weapons sends a chilling thought to every sensible mind that once Pakistan comes under jehadi taliban like government China is also under threat. Confused? Go read any jehadi website. They will tell you jehadi wants the complete world to be under Dar-ul-Islam. China is a part of that world.
However friendship with India should have been a better situation. A democratic country with sensible mind and with deep intellectual background that is progressive. China still choses to push up issues on Arunachal Pradesh where they do not have any physical existence and in Aksai Chin where not a blade of grass grows. China still choses to live with a 42 year old bitter feeling and being completely blind to future possibilities. Let me remind you friends be Indian or Chinese whichever side wins a war cannot rule upon any country. Even if India wins war with Pakistan and in all possiblity they have the better chances still it is impossbile for India to rule over Pakistan. The Americans have learnt that in Vietnam and now in Iraq, Soviets has learnt that in Afghanistan. Every country has countrymen who can lay their life in patriotism be that in India or China or even in Pakistan. It is not possible for any country to bring another country under complete rule. So why do we need a war?
But rivalry does one thing. It pushes every country to throw a good pie of their GDP to Arms deal when a poor civilian may be starving to death in need of a miniscule portion of that budget. This is fact a reality as poverty is everywhere be that in India or USA or China.
@sunny
Good to see your post.After a brief hiatus…seems good sense still prevails.BTW the Sino Indian debacle took place in 1962.
china can’t win against any country which has got nuclear bombs!! Not even United states has got balls!! It is common sense!! China is always the trouble maker!! India doesn’t provoke china, and it is always the other way around!! Since 1999, china is more cautious of india. It doesn’t try any stupid tricks like the past!!
Chinese are not fools to understand that eventhough they got conventional superiority over india (in numbers), India is not going to keep quiet if their territorial integrity is compromised. The so called NO first use policy of nukes goes out of the window right away!!
India’s nukes can yield up to 200kiloton or more and there is no question of limitations on this one. If 200 kiloton nukes not in the aresenal, doesn’t mean that india has got no capacity to take it up to 300 kiloton nukes. If china wants to lose their economic might, its people, and everything they got—then they can try and use their so called conventional superiority over india and capture arunachal pradesh or kashmir or whatever!! End of argument!!
by the way nice jokes by some american comedians who posted here
China has always backed tyrannical regimes;
Be they North Korea, Burma or Pakistan at the cost of the lives of thousands
of citizens of those countries.
Given the choice between good and evil.
Between Human Dignity and OutRight Human Rights violation
Between Progress tempered with Environmental Protection and Progress at the
cost of devastating the environment.
Between Honesty and Deceit.
Between Good Karma and Bad Karma
Between Decency and Rowdy Behavior
The chinese have gleefully chosen the later.
Well they will have to pay for their choice in the near future.
THE LAWS of KARMA ARE ETERNAL.
THE GAINS OF BAD KARMA ARE SHORT in the Long Run and the wages are TALL and bitter to swallow.
The above words can be engraved in STONE.
I wonder why “”YONG”" is so stupid………..tht china can beat india whenever he want…..And my friend “yong”" just stay in nyc (lol)
I agree india lacks behind the china but the only reason is their economic developement starts earlier thn india. But still there is not much difference between these two countries So if both countries ever go for war both countries will be destroyed completely and after tht whts the use if there r 100 indians left and 120 chinese left……. all 300 will be useless and so is both countries……
And second thng AMERICANS (lol) just they cleverly enjoy the world war 2 and make the most of the benifit thnks somethng special about them…… they have absolutely no history they r just money no character (leaving few which i admire alot warrent buffet and gates) ,,,,,,
ITS about character not about the money……..
(donnt u americans learns from ur mistakes ……. so many people died in afganistan and iraq and for wht reason , just to show this world tht u got best weapons and to aquire OIL fields)
@roy
try not to change the subject if you want to talk about Pakistan and india then feel free to………………
http://www.abytheliberal.com/military/india-pakistan-military-strength
and china are better
http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries_comparison_detail.asp
Wow I didn’t know Indians hated us this much? You guys even said that you would destroy SHANGHAI AND BEIJING? What the heck! Get real a war between India and China right at this moment is counter productive and unlikely to happen. Trust me Chinese people don’t even know about the 1962 war. Stop threatening China you are just creating an atmosphere of hate.
Stop making China into a scapegoat for your lack of economic progress! China is communist and has done a hell of alot more for it than the nationalist under Chiang-Kai-Shek.
If you continue East Asia should invest in border security to prevent the volatility of South Asia spreading into its territory.
@Nigel.
I read your post and the first feeling I got is that the entire topic of this discussion is going a wrong way. It is not about hitting Shanghai or Delhi or defeating each other within a week. It is about the in depth comparison or the strength and weakness of both the millitary powers. Some blog has been threatening but the topic of this discussion was surely not intended to be that. We know you dont hate us and neither do we hate you.
Lets agree to the fact talking of maufacturing China has gone a long way. For information tech India has gone a long way. Transferring each other expertise in millitary advantage is a challenge for both the country. Both the country has a vibrant economy and emerging super powers. It would be a better situation if both of them are good friends even at government level.
The first day when I heard of the passenger aircraft is been built in China my heart leapt with joy that the western dominance of aircraft industry is going to end. I would love to see India as one of the customer of JF-17 Thunder because it is cheap effective and easy than going for America F series or Russian Su series. The co-operation that has built the aerospace industry in America is a result of direct Canadian involvement. I would also like to see Chinese Rockets taking off from Sriharikota in India. Both has lot to gain from each other.
Nigel India is not volatile. Pakistan certainly is.
where is lca, arjun, atv after 20 twenty years????
indian like to talk big come out nothing.
superpower do not buy weapons, they self made.
what weapons have indian export to other countries.
is indian made arm reliable.
Taiwan a small island can make better arms than big talker indian.
taiwan idf fighters already in service for 10 years
taiwan can make supersonic anti ship missile brave wind 3 comparable to
indian bramhos which is actually russian’s yankhont missile
india going to bankrupt like soviet.
the russian earn billions of dollar from the stupid indian who dream to be a superpower.
now the americans are going to steal the the golden indian goose
i am a oversea chinese. i can see india are not happy that tibet is under china rule. i know india wish tibet is their. i know india want to be a superpower .i can see this pass decade india has spent billions of dollars in their navy. the indian is buy one carrier from the russia and building one indigenous carrier with forgien countries help, lease 2 russia akula sub, buy no. of russian friagates, buy spain-france dieasel subs. buy america LDP ships. buy israel barak missile system. joint with russia to make brahmos missile. futhermore, indian are also plan to use british carrier.
Indian arms industry definitely lags behind china and so do their acquisitions. However i would like to point out that the anti submarine capability of the Chinese navy is very substandard. if Indian can build up a sizable force in this regard, it will be effective
A s far as air force is concerned, China has a edge in numbers. The bulk of the Indian Air force is still Mig-21, which has no place in this century. Even then the existing capabilities and numbers of PLAAF will overcome IAF.. as far as air force is concerned, China has a edge in numbers
Armed forces are more or less comparable, but in event of war China could put more men into the “meat grinder”, that could prove decisive.
The war scenario is very unlikely, and possible only in the event where China join a future Indo-Pak war. As far as china is concerned, it will be watching the Taiwan straits closely and not the Indian border.
Hi All,
I dont want to speak about China / India much. Think in this direction,
Since, India in the position to keep Kahimer with its part, why did not keep srilanka init?
I dont understand why ?
Mary Jane -
India has successfully launched successfully the Agni missiles with different ranges which is self made and not imported from Russia. The latest vession of Agni can clear upto 3500 Kms range. Further we have self made missiles such as Prithvi, Akash etc.. No country can become a super power by manufacturing its own weapons. India has its own satellites and has launched satellites of other countries such as Malaysia, Tailand, Israel etc. Like Taiwan, India is not under the military umbrella of the U.S. We have many problems such as increasing population, terrorism, poverty, different languages, etc.. but still we have achieved so much in the field of science and technology. India may not become an arms superpower as we are a peace loving country but India is going to be an I.T superpower in the future and will challenge the U.S. If we were not occupied by the British in the past, we would have been the most wealthiest and the most powerful nation t